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The Great Chain of Being - April 9, 2010
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Spiked Math Comic - The Great Chain of Being



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43 Comments

Aw man physicists get no love? :(

Physicists are just mathematicians with shiny things and explosions.

rather, physicists are just men!

According to mathematicians.

Or women (who are conspicuously absent from the chart).

Actually, Women are included under "Mathematicians". No worries.

Nope, under man

Unrelated to this comic I just saw your comment on Extra Ordinary, this fact made my day.

Waves and waves upon WAVES of Christians are now waiting at your door with shotguns readied.
I wish you luck surviving any outings now.

Seriously though, it's hard to make me feel offended as a Christian, and you did it.
For one: I'm surprised you put demons above man (and if you want to get technical, demons ARE angels. They're just rebel angels against God) and then there's the blasphemy of mathematician being above God. I mean, look at things from God's viewpoint: Not only does he have all the knowledge, and then some, of a mathematician, but he has the power to put all that math to work to make a universe.

Simply put, bad move man, REAL bad move. :/

u srzly? "Not only does he have all the knowledge" - isn't that a paradoxon?

Hehe, nice said. I can't realy say where I had to laugh more, the Comic or your post.. btw: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3502 :))

"I'm surprised you put demons above man (and if you want to get technical, demons ARE angels. They're just rebel angels against God)"

Why are you surprised? Surely by your own logic, demons are on the same level of being as angels?

There is no logic in God existing. Mathematicians are clearly above that :P

Anyhow, you clearly don't understand how comics work. They are a joke. Get over it.

I agree. Demons are beings of pure spirit having no bodies they are ranked as per angels. Thus they are above humanity.

Actually you're all wrong at this, since God put men above angels. How else would you explain fallen man can get mercy from God, and fallen angels (demons) can't? I think it's explained in the letter to the Hebrews.

You should go hang out with some Mathematicians and you might understand the joke a bit better.

And seriously, no love for the Physicists? BAD MOVE, we're comin for ya with our... Newton's third law, or whatever, and you'll be sorry!

The belief that everyone else must do or say things a certain way so as to not offend your specific beliefs is called Fascism. I don't need to mention who else was a Fascist.

However, this is America. So you have a right to act like a fascist just as much as we have a right to make fun of your religion. Have fun with that.

I didn't make the Great Chain of Being, all I did was put mathematicians at the top where they belong. In some of the hierarchies I've seen they actually split Man/Woman up and put Man above Woman.

Plus I don't live in America, so you'll have to bring your shotgun to Canada ;-)

I was responding to Doug, not your comic. I'm not sure why you responded to me. My apologies for assuming you lived in the U.S... I'm the same freedom of speech exists in Canada though.

No need for angry replies, just say: "Looks more like a chain of necessity" and be done with it. Allow pagan mathematicians to consider themselves above God, it's a God given (and constitucional) right.

Any truly religious person (believing in God) wouldn't want to commit a sin (murder), so that makes it impossible that truly 'Christian' people would be using guns on someone for posting a comic.

I'm actually amazed that someone reading this found it offensive enough to write such an angry response as Doug.

Realy? I actually got offended by the fact that Christians think their GOD is good. Anyway the chain of beings shows the being by power, not by good, and demeans are way more powerful then humens no matter how you twist it. And if god is all knowing then he is evil; else he is not all knowing. And who said it way YOUR god anyway?

Correction, if the christian god is all knowing then he is evil. (as per him torturing people under the guise of testing them when he already knows the results.) An all knowing god could in theory be neutral. also a disclaimer: Good and evil are from a perspective, I only speak based on my definitions of the two words. You may have different results from using different definitions.

Hardcore christians with shotguns... typical.

If you're offended by this, you ARE easily offended as christian, I am christian too and I find it's just a joke (not an original one on that, but still a joke)

"Waves and waves upon WAVES of Christians are now waiting at your door with shotguns readied."

Onward Christian Soldiers? I showed this to a bunch of Christians, four of whom are ministers of various denominations; they all laughed and didn't mention shotguns. Jesus would find this funny.

To spikedmath: Funny comic man, I look forward to reading this every day. Keep it up!

This might cause a ****-storm but I posted a comment on another comic that poked fun at metaphysics and theology.

The content of the comment involved a strand of apologetics called presuppositionalism.

In mathematics, consistent, logical thinking is required. One cannot have contradictory statements within a proof. This is based off of the first Law of Logic called the Law of Non-Contradiction. Without God, the laws of logic including the law of Non-Contradiction, which are supposedly transcendent and immutable, could not exist because an immutable and transcendent being is required for anything in the universe to have form and order. No transcendent being means no Laws of Logic, which means no mathematical argumentation. Thus, God must exist for mathematics to work.

This brand of argumentation is flawed in my mind, but I can't seem to find an honest answer to it. I think it's a re-working of the cosmological argument called the transcendental argument or TAG.

Either way, I found this comic funny. The last one that poked fun at theology was also hilarious.

Thanks for letting me rant here. I mean no disrespect.

Math Geek

After removing numerous irrelevancies, the argument is essentially circular. ie: Witout God the Laws of Logic cannot exist because God is required for such laws to exist.

Quite. In practice one must look at the following law of logic: Circular statements do not qualify as logic.

What came first, immutability and transcendence or an immutable and transcendent being to enforce immutability and transcendence?

That brand of argument is flawed because it is valid but not sound; with the unprovable premise that an immutable and transcendent being is required for anything in the universe to have form and order.

That very point is what makes it an interesting argument; one team requires proof, the other team doesn't.

It's good that even something so serious can be poked fun at ;)

"ie: Witout God the Laws of Logic cannot exist because God is required for such laws to exist." How is that circular? Stated tautologically, sure. Math Geek wrote that a transcendent and immutable being is required for transcendent and immutable laws, so comes the statement 'iff God exists, then laws of logic exist.' The contrapositive then follows 'iff the laws of logic don't exist, then there is no God'. If Math Geek's assumption/postulate/whatever-it-is is true, then what follows (and the laws of logic certainly do exist) must also be true.
And to mightywhite, when you ask what came first, isn't that irrelevant as God (and therefore logic/logical laws) is transcendent of time?
If whatever I'm spouting sounds like complete babble, forgive me as being a freshman in high school probably isn't too much knowledge to go on lol. This conversation just looked too good to not be a part of :)

actually, god has the book, so he's above mathematicians (or at least, he can bribe them with pages from it in order to let them put him above them). also, this reminds me of a story I heard that when Einstein said "god doesn't play dice", Heisenberg answered "Einstein, stop telling god what to do."

>>Heisenberg answered "Einstein, stop telling god what to do."

I think this quote is usually attributed to Niels Bohr

thanks, I wasn't sure about that.

Well, Mathematicians and God have some similarities....Man cannot understand either, but its easier to read the Bible/Torah/Qur'an/Bhagavad Gita etc. than it is to read a Topology book - so I agree with this comic (although you forgot physicists at the top).

physicists are just mathematicians that can't handle proofs.

I see several fallacies in the general trend of arguments.

MATH DOES NOT STAND FOR ORDER

It simply does not and cannot. The universe is NOT ordered. We apply order to it. Quantom physics is a prime example of this. Math does not result from the 'order' of the universe. rather, math is a tool, used to replicate patterns we observe in the universe and to predict outcomes. The universe is not perfectly ordered, even though it does have patterns, these patterns aren't concrete, there are always outliers in studies, and any symbols we see in the stars/mud, are symbols we attach to said objects because we are trained to see them.

Thank you. it's so nice to see a person who sees that model of reality != reality, the model of reality only simulates reality well. I mean we don't even know why objects have mass or what mass is, we just know how it works under most conditions assuming a three dimensional representation of reality.

That may explain why many scientists have no belief in a divine being or an afterlife. If the universe doesn't follow some kind of orderly system that makes some kind of sense, then why should an afterlife be posited?

Arguing for the existence a god in my opinion is probably just special pleading.

yeah, physicists use math as a tool because they cannot, from scratch, develop the math that the universe uses. probably it's beyond human understanding. still, pure math is usually far more interesting then math used as a tool.

Actually God put men above angels...

And Mike put angels above men.

Naah,

Animals (includes humans, mathematicians, physicists etc.)--> Plants --> Bacteria --> other things --> God --> gods (angles etc.) --> Demons (bad angels) --> Devil

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